Anders Andersen

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Posts by Anders Andersen

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  85

  Newspaper reports: Dutch government will initiate inquiry into child abuse within JW community

  by Anders Andersen in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  today a dutch newspaper published an in-depth follow-up item on jw abuse issues.. the most interesting part of the article is this:.

  the politicians also let themselves be heard.

  a month ago the house of representatives voted unanimously in favor of a motion to enforce an independent inquiry into abuse within the jehovah's witnesses, as the organization refuses to initiate it.

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  Anders Andersen

  it’s illegitimate to request an independent investigation based on the words of former members

  Oh good, another loophole! Sorry Jesus, I didn't hear you when you spoke about that two mile thingy!
  
• 
  85

  Newspaper reports: Dutch government will initiate inquiry into child abuse within JW community

  by Anders Andersen in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  today a dutch newspaper published an in-depth follow-up item on jw abuse issues.. the most interesting part of the article is this:.

  the politicians also let themselves be heard.

  a month ago the house of representatives voted unanimously in favor of a motion to enforce an independent inquiry into abuse within the jehovah's witnesses, as the organization refuses to initiate it.

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  Anders Andersen

  I'll even translate the quote for you:

  It may be, for instance, that a [Dutch Minister] asks [JW leaders] to [start an inquiry into child abuse issues] that [they] would prefer not to do but that is not contrary to God’s law. How will [JW leaders] react? [They] may feel that unreasonable demands are being made on [their] time and energies, and [they] may therefore react indignantly. The result may be ill will. On the other hand, if [they] comply sullenly, [they] may lose [their] inner peace. The solution? [They should do] as Jesus recommended​—go the second mile. [They should] not only [start the inquiry] but even more than what is asked. [They should do] it willingly. - The Watchtower, 2005 (revised edition)
  
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  85

  Newspaper reports: Dutch government will initiate inquiry into child abuse within JW community

  by Anders Andersen in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  today a dutch newspaper published an in-depth follow-up item on jw abuse issues.. the most interesting part of the article is this:.

  the politicians also let themselves be heard.

  a month ago the house of representatives voted unanimously in favor of a motion to enforce an independent inquiry into abuse within the jehovah's witnesses, as the organization refuses to initiate it.

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  Anders Andersen

  How many child abuse cases were there in the Netherlands in WT?

  We don't know, neither do you. An inquiry could clear that up.

  The CC also didn't think they had a problem, but they started the inquiry anyway.

  It was only through that inquiry that they found out the scope of the issue.
• 
  85

  Newspaper reports: Dutch government will initiate inquiry into child abuse within JW community

  by Anders Andersen in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  today a dutch newspaper published an in-depth follow-up item on jw abuse issues.. the most interesting part of the article is this:.

  the politicians also let themselves be heard.

  a month ago the house of representatives voted unanimously in favor of a motion to enforce an independent inquiry into abuse within the jehovah's witnesses, as the organization refuses to initiate it.

  1. 
  2. 
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  Anders Andersen

  Why do I mention [the Catholic Church]? Because they are the standard of abuse coverups. They are the mesuring stick.

  Indeed. In fact, the Dutch Minister specifically said so himself. I'm not even joking.

  The Dutch government advised the JW to take a serious look at the way the CC in the Netherlands responded when it became clear many allegations of child abuse were reported.

  What did the CC do?

  • They started and conducted an impartial inquiry that first established the extent of the problem, then made recommendations to improve prevention and victim support.
  • The CC publicly acknowledged they failed the victims, and apologized.
  • They improved their policies.
  • They provided professional support for victims.
  • They setup a financial redress scheme.
    

  The CC are the measuring stick indeed. The Minister urged JW to follow their example. The Dutch CC volunteered to assist JW leaders, as the CC has learned a great deal.

  Guess what? JW don't want to do any of what the CC did.

  JW come up short against the measuring stick.
  

  Facts are not determined by popular opinion. RV can recruit a thousand people. In our civilized world, facts are determined by the court/legal system

  Or by independent inquiries. Apparently Watchtower wants to be able to continue to say it's just RV's opinion, or they would have started an inquiry themselves (when the government strongly urged them they do that). Maybe JW don't want an inquiry to turn up the facts?

  I guess JW leaders have never read Matthew 5:41 - If someone in authority compels you into service for a mile, go with him two miles.

  Nor did they apply Romans 13:

  Let every person be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God. Therefore, whoever opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will bring judgment against themselves. For those rulers are an object of fear, not to the good deed, but to the bad. Do you want to be free of fear of the authority? Keep doing good, and you will have praise from it; for it is God’s minister to you for your good. But if you are doing what is bad, be in fear, for it is not without purpose that it bears the sword. It is God’s minister, an avenger to express wrath against the one practicing what is bad.

  Watchtower once wrote:

  The principle Jesus taught, that of being willing to carry out legitimate requests, is valid not only for governmental requirements but also in everyday human relations. It may be, for instance, that a person with authority over you asks you to do something that you would prefer not to do but that is not contrary to God’s law. How will you react? You may feel that unreasonable demands are being made on your time and energies, and you may therefore react indignantly. The result may be ill will. On the other hand, if you comply sullenly, you may lose your inner peace. The solution? Do as Jesus recommended​—go the second mile. Do not only what is asked of you but even more than what is asked. Do it willingly. In that frame of mind, you will no longer feel that you are being taken advantage of, yet you remain free to be master of your own actions. - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2005126?q=matt+5%3A41&p=par#h=1

  
  

  Watchtower's own words condemn them.
  

  
  
• 
  85

  Newspaper reports: Dutch government will initiate inquiry into child abuse within JW community

  by Anders Andersen in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  today a dutch newspaper published an in-depth follow-up item on jw abuse issues.. the most interesting part of the article is this:.

  the politicians also let themselves be heard.

  a month ago the house of representatives voted unanimously in favor of a motion to enforce an independent inquiry into abuse within the jehovah's witnesses, as the organization refuses to initiate it.

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  Anders Andersen

  Clearly they have made a determination to keep matters private if the victim wants it to be kept private and I am no expert in Finnish law but if you say that withholding this information on Watchtower's part is a crime then shouldn't it also be a crime for RV from not going to the police themselves as an organization or individual members in compliance with the law.

  First, we're talking about Dutch law here, not Finnish.

  Dutch law has mandatory reporting only for very severe crimes, such as murder and rape. Unfortunately sexual abuse of minors does not fall in this category (unless the abuse included sexual penetration under threat of violence or blackmail aka rape).

  The law on mandatory reporting may be changed to include child abuse though. This a direct result of JW refusing to cooperate with an inquiry.

  The law on rape was being revised already anyway; any sexual penetration without consent will be classified as rape. Under current law having sex with a sleeping, drunk or unconscious victim who is incapable of (not) consenting is not considered rape. Under new law it will be.

  Anyway, back to mandatory reporting. It appears that if among the 300 cases there's a report of rape, RV would indeed have to report it to the police.

  Given that they have already been in contact with a lawyer, and the police, and the DA's office, and the Ministry of Justice, I'm quite sure they have this covered somehow. No doubt at least one of the above informed them of their duties.

  And from what I read it may be possible for the DA to exempt someone from mandatory reporting. Perhaps RV was granted an exemption given their function as a trustee to victims?

  Or maybe RV has already reported rape cases to the police, and simply doesn't shout it from the rooftops to protect victims?

  Anyhow, RV focus is not on whether or not Watchtower committed crimes by not reporting. Their focus is on improving the situation for victims and better prevention (see my previous post)
• 
  85

  Newspaper reports: Dutch government will initiate inquiry into child abuse within JW community

  by Anders Andersen in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  today a dutch newspaper published an in-depth follow-up item on jw abuse issues.. the most interesting part of the article is this:.

  the politicians also let themselves be heard.

  a month ago the house of representatives voted unanimously in favor of a motion to enforce an independent inquiry into abuse within the jehovah's witnesses, as the organization refuses to initiate it.

  1. 
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  Anders Andersen

  Do they also have the “moral obligation” to see to it that the police investigate these alleged crimes?

  Finally a remark that makes some sense. Of course it would be strange if RV would demand JW to report abuse, and not do it themselves.

  Now it should be remarked first that RV doesn't simply say that JW elders should report all abuse cases to the police. Instead, RV wants JW elders to encourage victims to go to the police, and actively support them when they report to the police. RV does exactly that themselves: encourage victims to go to the police, and actively support them when they do.

  RV also wants JW to actively encourage victims to seek professional help to cope with their trauma. RV does exactly that themselves: encourage victims to seek professional help, and refer them to a suitable organization or professional.

  RV also wants JW to drop the 2 witness rule when deciding what actions they'll take to support a victim. And of course RV doesn't require a victim to come up with a second witness before they offer support.

  RV wants that JW become more open and transparent wrt abuse. They also want JW to acknowledge and empower abuse victims instead of ignoring them and silencing them. RV does exactly that: speak openly over abuse within the JW community, acknowledge he victims and give them a voice.

  So while your remark would have some merit if RV only demanded JW report all abuses cases to the police, it should be clear that RV tries to do exactly that what they want the JW to do as well.
• 
  85

  Newspaper reports: Dutch government will initiate inquiry into child abuse within JW community

  by Anders Andersen in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  today a dutch newspaper published an in-depth follow-up item on jw abuse issues.. the most interesting part of the article is this:.

  the politicians also let themselves be heard.

  a month ago the house of representatives voted unanimously in favor of a motion to enforce an independent inquiry into abuse within the jehovah's witnesses, as the organization refuses to initiate it.

  1. 
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  Anders Andersen

  Doubter shows exactly why JW have poor policies and culture re. the handling of child abuse:

  • They seem to care more about defending their org than about the victims.
  • They don't really want to cooperate with any initiative that may improve the handling of abuse cases (if such would be necessary).
  • They think nothing is the org is ever wrong.
  • They think something can't be true unless proven in court.
  • They are quick to deny any moral responsibility for anything that happens within their community.

  Doubter continues to act as if an independent inquiry that will show whether or not JW policies were/are adequate, and JW culture was/is healthy, and whether JW did/do protect children and abuse victims adequately is the worst thing ever.

  Such an inquiry is not a conviction, nor is it a criminal investigation.

  It is an opportunity to improve.

  One might liken it to a shepherding visit: even if you think you're spiritual strong and healthy, it can still be beneficial.

  But we already told Doubter all that several times. He just doesn't want to hear it.

  And when the results from the Dutch inquiry come in, and it shows JW policies and practices are excellent, Doubter will say "told you so" and we'll just be happy that JW children are safe after all, and that the rest of society can learn from JW's excellent example.

  And if the results show that JW policies re child abuse were or are not very good, Doubter will deny it and claim persecution, or say that other groups also failed the children (which they did, admitted, and try to correct), or claim that back in the 80s the standards weren't so high (which is rather strange for people whose morals are set by God himself).

  Ah well....what can we do. Doubter insists on being here. Apparently he doesn't like JW spiritual food too much anymore?
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  27

  Contradictions!

  by Freedom rocks in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  quite regularly at meetings jws mocked worldly people and apostates(anyone who had left the "truth") for saying the bible contradicts itself when it is in complete harmony from beginning to end apparently.

  can anyone point out some of the contradictions they know of?

  they used to laugh at the fact people on the doors would say the bible contradicts itself and when they asked the householder to show them where, they couldn't..

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  Anders Andersen

  Another list of 531 contradictions in the Bible: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/number.html

  remark of the author of that website:

  I've never seen a contradiction that believers can't resolve, at least to their own satisfaction. It could have been this way, it could have been that. That's what it says, but that's not what it means. It was a copyist's error. Whatever.

  Contradictions are, in my opinion, the least of the Bible's problems. I include them for just one purpose: it shows that the Bible, whatever else it may be, is not inerrant.
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  27

  Contradictions!

  by Freedom rocks in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  quite regularly at meetings jws mocked worldly people and apostates(anyone who had left the "truth") for saying the bible contradicts itself when it is in complete harmony from beginning to end apparently.

  can anyone point out some of the contradictions they know of?

  they used to laugh at the fact people on the doors would say the bible contradicts itself and when they asked the householder to show them where, they couldn't..

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  Anders Andersen

  A great resource for this is http://bibviz.com/

  Just hover over any of the red arcs, and a popup in the corner will show the topic and Bible verses.

  Or click on one of the red lines, and you'll end up on a details page.

  Note: sometimes the verse numbers and quotes are a bit off. So if the quoted verse don't make the contradiction clear, look them up and read the context as well.
  
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  85

  Newspaper reports: Dutch government will initiate inquiry into child abuse within JW community

  by Anders Andersen in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  today a dutch newspaper published an in-depth follow-up item on jw abuse issues.. the most interesting part of the article is this:.

  the politicians also let themselves be heard.

  a month ago the house of representatives voted unanimously in favor of a motion to enforce an independent inquiry into abuse within the jehovah's witnesses, as the organization refuses to initiate it.

  1. 
  2. 
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  Anders Andersen

  RC needs to have their already dubious claims scrutinized

  If I recall correctly, Reclaimed Voices petitioned the JW to cooperate in an investigation of these report.

  JW refused.

  RV then the petitioned the government to put the spotlight on their claims. The government asked JW to investigate.

  JW refused.

  RV really wants their claims scrutinized.

  The only ones who want to avoid any investigation are the JW.